Pop Culture Face Off Extreme Firefight Time: Arrested Development v. 30 Rock

As writers of a pop culture blog, Kid Combustible and I assume that you care about our petty arguments regarding poorly-rated television shows. With that, we present Pop Culture Face Off Extreme Firefight Time: in which we stage an extremely disorganized debate in the most pretentious way possible. Tonight? Arrested Development versus 30 Rock. Which show better deserves a place in the KoK (Kanon of Komedy)? The answer? AFTER THE JUMP.


Kid Combustible (11:36:39 PM): This is sort of going to be a mountain for us to climb in two ways. Firstly this argument cuts to the very soul of both of our senses of taste. Secondly this is probably going to be the best topic we debate

Miss Mordant (11:37:09 PM): We're creative kids. I'm sure we'll come up with a few more excellent topics.

Miss Mordant (11:37:18 PM): Besides, we could just wait until we have readers to post it.

Kid Combustible (11:37:32 PM): Hey, our one reader is offended by that

Miss Mordant (11:37:39 PM): We have a reader?

Kid Combustible (11:37:56 PM): His name is Geodore. He lives in my head

Miss Mordant (11:38:04 PM): *waves* Hi, Geodore!

Kid Combustible (11:38:25 PM): He has no arms, but trust me - he's psyched

Kid Combustible (11:39:44 PM): Now, let me start off by asking you someone who is a lover of the standard 3 cam sitcom - are 30 Rock and Arrested Development the most influential sitcoms in the last ten years? Should they be?

Kid Combustible (11:40:01 PM): dead

Kid Combustible (11:40:07 PM): oops

Kid Combustible (11:40:09 PM): sorry

Kid Combustible (11:40:11 PM): wrong window

Miss Mordant (11:40:19 PM): Yes, they should be dead

Kid Combustible (11:40:22 PM): WE'RE DOING SO WELL

Miss Mordant (11:40:30 PM): Don't worry, we can edit that out in post-production

Kid Combustible (11:40:49 PM): I almost think we should keep it for funz

Miss Mordant (11:40:56 PM): I'm a supporter of funz.

Kid Combustible (11:40:57 PM): it shows our fuckupability

Miss Mordant (11:41:18 PM): We can't show weakness! Now we can never earn Geodore's trust

Kid Combustible (11:41:35 PM): answer the question

Kid Combustible (11:41:37 PM): foool

Miss Mordant (11:42:27 PM): Okay. Well in terms of influence, I would say that it's difficult to determine in the case of 30 Rock, considering that there have only been two seasons and it hasn't been canceled.

Miss Mordant (11:42:57 PM): I would say that Arrested Development has an enormous influence over 30 Rock and some other sitcoms.

Miss Mordant (11:43:31 PM): The general future of the sitcom, I think, is in postmodern formatting. Even the three-camera sitcoms have been experimenting with this.

Kid Combustible (11:43:48 PM): You better not go where I think you are...

Miss Mordant (11:43:58 PM): HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER, BITCH

Kid Combustible (11:44:02 PM): ahhhhhhhhh

Kid Combustible (11:44:16 PM): KILL IT

Kid Combustible (11:44:32 PM): eh, it's better than My Name is Earl

Kid Combustible (11:44:41 PM): which you also like

Miss Mordant (11:44:52 PM): Which doesn't have a laugh track, by the way

Kid Combustible (11:44:59 PM): or a 3 cam set

Kid Combustible (11:45:13 PM): It pretty much as situations and comedy.

Miss Mordant (11:45:37 PM): Besides, you've only seen the episode of HIMYM where they go to Atlantic City, which isn't even indicative.

Kid Combustible (11:46:06 PM): You've never seen Rocky 3

Kid Combustible (11:46:08 PM): I rest my case

Kid Combustible (11:46:18 PM): Now, onto brass tacks

Kid Combustible (11:46:23 PM): or tax?

Miss Mordant (11:46:36 PM): It's tacks.

Miss Mordant (11:46:44 PM): I don't think there's a brass tax.

Kid Combustible (11:46:53 PM): Not since Dickety-3

Kid Combustible (11:47:36 PM): Now, we can agree that these two shows are pardoxically similar and almost completely opposite, right?

Miss Mordant (11:47:51 PM): Arrested Development and 30 Rock?

Miss Mordant (11:48:03 PM): They're formatted similarly but the plots are entirely different

Miss Mordant (11:48:18 PM): My Name is Earl and How I Met Your Mother have nothing in common except the fact that I like them.

Kid Combustible (11:48:30 PM): alright, let's stop talking about the lesser sitcoms

Kid Combustible (11:48:41 PM): We're talking about canon here

Kid Combustible (11:49:11 PM): Which I believe AD is firmly a part of, while 30 Rock isn't.

Miss Mordant (11:49:20 PM): What?

Kid Combustible (11:49:29 PM): The Canon

Kid Combustible (11:49:33 PM): The Canon of Comedy

Kid Combustible (11:49:45 PM): or, seeing as this is comedy, The Kanon of Komedy

Miss Mordant (11:50:36 PM): Why don't you think 30 Rock is part of that?

Kid Combustible (11:51:10 PM): Well, let me preface that remark posthumously:

Kid Combustible (11:51:33 PM): It certainly has the opportunity to be a part of that upper eschelon

Kid Combustible (11:53:09 PM): It's quick, it's well written, and I don't think you can ever count out a Tina Fey project. (I had to watch Mean Girls 3 times before I figured that out). However, I cannot escape this sort of jabbing sensation that 30 Rock is sort of the zazzed-up version of AD to some extent.

Miss Mordant (11:53:46 PM): But you admit it's zazzed.

Kid Combustible (11:54:46 PM): It relies too heavily on comedy troupes that are well worn (crazy black guy, crazy wild woman, smooth talking Alec Baldwin). It certainly does a lot to switch up the normal pitch that those are played at, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're blowing down any boundaries.

Kid Combustible (11:59:17 PM): Seeing as you aren't chomping at the bit to answer, I'll continue: 30 Rock has the ability to be truly boring at times. I think of all the instances where Liz Lemon simply gives up on morales or ideas and falls in line. Sure, it's realistic, but who gives a shit? It's a sell-out for a cheap laugh. In another high-profile incident on that show, I would have killed to see the purported Tracy-Toofer skit about race relations, rather than Star Jones Cooking Show or whatever that was

Kid Combustible (11:59:56 PM): AD, on the other hand, went over the line so many times it's hard to count. They went to Iraq, for god's sake

Miss Mordant (12:00:09 AM): For the record, I was in fact chomping. Chomping slowly is chomping nonetheless.

Miss Mordant (12:01:39 AM): The problem with cheap laughs is that people who aren't urban sophisticates like yourself enjoy them. In the business aspect of creating a comedy show, relatability is key

Miss Mordant (12:02:44 AM): And in the case of the 30 Rock episode you mentioned, seeing the Tracy-Toofer skit would have defeated the whole purpose of the episode.

Miss Mordant (12:02:57 AM): That's something Studio 60 would have done.

Miss Mordant (12:03:38 AM): If they'd shown the skit, it would have to have been god-awful.

Kid Combustible (12:03:53 AM): I agree, and I think that would have been how they could have played it

Kid Combustible (12:04:07 AM): Also, let us never speak of Studio 60 again

Miss Mordant (12:04:28 AM): Aaron Sorkin? I have no Aaron Sorkin.

Kid Combustible (12:04:49 AM): I just confused him with Alan Arkin. Color me embarrassed

Miss Mordant (12:05:07 AM): Somebody didn't grow up on Sports Night reruns.

Kid Combustible (12:05:39 AM): That says something distinct about us - you grew up on a show that parodied a show that I grew up on.

Kid Combustible (12:06:07 AM): Anyway, were you still going before this deviation?

Miss Mordant (12:06:11 AM): This could be another topic, see? Sports Night isn't a parody.

Kid Combustible (12:06:20 AM): AHH KILL IT

Miss Mordant (12:06:55 AM): This isn't debate club!

Miss Mordant (12:07:15 AM): and you're not Tim Russert

Kid Combustible (12:07:37 AM): I do like the Buffalo Bills.

Miss Mordant (12:07:42 AM): Anyway, 30 Rock doesn't have to be Arrested Development. Arrested Development already happened.

Miss Mordant (12:07:59 AM): It can't blow down barriers that Arrested Development blew down.

Miss Mordant (12:08:34 AM): I think that its place in canon will be its longevity. Proof that a postmodern sitcom can exist in a one-camera world.

Kid Combustible (12:11:30 AM): I would agree, but that doesn't mean that they equate each other in quality. 30 Rock will be around for at least as long as shows like The Office because they lack the same balls-to-the-wallity as AD, but I'm not ready to give "staying power" as one of its positive attributes, particularly in this comparison

Kid Combustible (12:14:14 AM): As for the idea of cheap jokes, I nearly dropped my snifter of brandy when I read that. AD was incredibly gag-laden, and I don't think I got the idea that I loved that about AD across strong enough. I think 30 Rock's mass appeal is based on it's universally understood subject manner more than its simplicity (which is weird, because somehow a family dynamic is less universal nowadays)/

Miss Mordant (12:15:56 AM): That doesn't seem weird to me at all. In today's society, there's no such thing as a universal family dynamic.

Kid Combustible (12:16:47 AM): particularly when that family dynamic centers around a bunch of lupen rich eccentrics (something the show had the insanely prudent sense to point out repeatedly).

Miss Mordant (12:17:15 AM): Especially after it was canceled.

Miss Mordant (12:18:05 AM): Anyway, it's unfair to expect me to argue that 30 Rock is somehow a superior show to Arrested Development, because it isn't.

Miss Mordant (12:18:29 AM): Its format is derivative of AD and its content is derivative of pop culture at large.

Miss Mordant (12:18:53 AM): but dammit, the jokes are funny.

Kid Combustible (12:19:56 AM): I agree. I would almost say that 30 Rock is a much more accessable show in a momentary sense. Watching an episode of AD out of a seasonal episodic format is jarring.

Miss Mordant (12:21:40 AM): One might say that Arrested Development is to Waiting for Guffman as 30 Rock is to Best in Show

Kid Combustible (12:22:01 AM): Everyone I know hates Best in Show

Kid Combustible (12:22:21 AM): I love the comparison, FWIW

Miss Mordant (12:22:22 AM): Maybe you should get out more.

Miss Mordant (12:23:54 AM): Thanks. Anyway, I think a major difference between sitcom format and the kind of comedy program that Arrested Development popularized is an adherence to continuity.

Miss Mordant (12:24:14 AM): In the old format, a conflict would arise in an episode and be resolved within the episode.

Miss Mordant (12:24:46 AM): In the new format, conflicts resolve on a season-to-season basis or as part of an arc.

Kid Combustible (12:26:48 AM): There's also an in-between space with those two set ups of which 30 Rock has an almost otherworldly understanding. It is able to carry on arcs and fulfill them while keeping the variety high.

Miss Mordant (12:27:26 AM): And I know The Office isn't part of this discussion, but it finds another way to fall between the formats.

Miss Mordant (12:27:39 AM): And that's not to say that Arrested Development isn't episodic.

Kid Combustible (12:28:48 AM): The problem with the The Office in that respect is that you never ever are let to forget what the arcs are. At the end of each episode you once again get a thick reminder of everything happening in the background. 30 Rock has a much more lassiez-faire relationship with it's viewers, which translates into more trust in my opinion.

Miss Mordant (12:29:37 AM): Both shows have changed since their pilots in that aspect, though.

Miss Mordant (12:30:11 AM): 30 Rock seems to deal with continuity only when it needs to. Instead of inventing a new love interest for Liz, they bring back Dennis or Floyd.

Kid Combustible (12:30:57 AM): One point I think we wouldn't agree on between AD and 30 is which has the better characters. However, I'm not positive where you lay on this, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Miss Mordant (12:34:06 AM): Okay. My honest opinion is that I prefer the tertiary characters on Arrested Development and the primary characters on 30 Rock.

Kid Combustible (12:34:30 AM): YES, we are direct opposites

Miss Mordant (12:34:45 AM): Come on. Bob Loblaw? That's genius.

Miss Mordant (12:36:12 AM): One of Arrested Development's strengths was its stunt casting.

Miss Mordant (12:36:48 AM): Whereas who did 30 Rock get? Jerry Seinfeld? That may be the worst episode.

Kid Combustible (12:38:32 AM): I mean, I agree that AD knows their chess pieces better than maybe any show before it, but are you joking? I counter your Bob Loblaw with Dr. Spaceman, Donny the evil page and Matthew Broderick's absolutely delicious turn in last season's finale.

Kid Combustible (12:40:02 AM): That's not even counting the fact that 30 Rock's set up allows Liz/Tracy/Jenna/Donaghy to be featured while the rest of the mammoth cast falls in and out, while AD requires almost a complete stop switch upon showing every new character

Miss Mordant (12:40:25 AM): The question here is whether or not Franklin counts as a tertiary character.

Kid Combustible (12:41:05 AM): "I GOT CHILDRENS ALL OVER TOOOOWN"

Kid Combustible (12:42:35 AM): Also, Devon Banks might be better than GOB

Kid Combustible (12:42:36 AM): there

Kid Combustible (12:42:38 AM): I said it

Miss Mordant (12:43:21 AM): He certainly has more tumors.

Kid Combustible (12:43:36 AM): But he's less of a poof