Pop Culture Face Off Extreme Firefight Time: Arrested Development v. 30 Rock

As writers of a pop culture blog, Kid Combustible and I assume that you care about our petty arguments regarding poorly-rated television shows. With that, we present Pop Culture Face Off Extreme Firefight Time: in which we stage an extremely disorganized debate in the most pretentious way possible. Tonight? Arrested Development versus 30 Rock. Which show better deserves a place in the KoK (Kanon of Komedy)? The answer? AFTER THE JUMP.


Kid Combustible (11:36:39 PM): This is sort of going to be a mountain for us to climb in two ways. Firstly this argument cuts to the very soul of both of our senses of taste. Secondly this is probably going to be the best topic we debate

Miss Mordant (11:37:09 PM): We're creative kids. I'm sure we'll come up with a few more excellent topics.

Miss Mordant (11:37:18 PM): Besides, we could just wait until we have readers to post it.

Kid Combustible (11:37:32 PM): Hey, our one reader is offended by that

Miss Mordant (11:37:39 PM): We have a reader?

Kid Combustible (11:37:56 PM): His name is Geodore. He lives in my head

Miss Mordant (11:38:04 PM): *waves* Hi, Geodore!

Kid Combustible (11:38:25 PM): He has no arms, but trust me - he's psyched

Kid Combustible (11:39:44 PM): Now, let me start off by asking you someone who is a lover of the standard 3 cam sitcom - are 30 Rock and Arrested Development the most influential sitcoms in the last ten years? Should they be?

Kid Combustible (11:40:01 PM): dead

Kid Combustible (11:40:07 PM): oops

Kid Combustible (11:40:09 PM): sorry

Kid Combustible (11:40:11 PM): wrong window

Miss Mordant (11:40:19 PM): Yes, they should be dead

Kid Combustible (11:40:22 PM): WE'RE DOING SO WELL

Miss Mordant (11:40:30 PM): Don't worry, we can edit that out in post-production

Kid Combustible (11:40:49 PM): I almost think we should keep it for funz

Miss Mordant (11:40:56 PM): I'm a supporter of funz.

Kid Combustible (11:40:57 PM): it shows our fuckupability

Miss Mordant (11:41:18 PM): We can't show weakness! Now we can never earn Geodore's trust

Kid Combustible (11:41:35 PM): answer the question

Kid Combustible (11:41:37 PM): foool

Miss Mordant (11:42:27 PM): Okay. Well in terms of influence, I would say that it's difficult to determine in the case of 30 Rock, considering that there have only been two seasons and it hasn't been canceled.

Miss Mordant (11:42:57 PM): I would say that Arrested Development has an enormous influence over 30 Rock and some other sitcoms.

Miss Mordant (11:43:31 PM): The general future of the sitcom, I think, is in postmodern formatting. Even the three-camera sitcoms have been experimenting with this.

Kid Combustible (11:43:48 PM): You better not go where I think you are...

Miss Mordant (11:43:58 PM): HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER, BITCH

Kid Combustible (11:44:02 PM): ahhhhhhhhh

Kid Combustible (11:44:16 PM): KILL IT

Kid Combustible (11:44:32 PM): eh, it's better than My Name is Earl

Kid Combustible (11:44:41 PM): which you also like

Miss Mordant (11:44:52 PM): Which doesn't have a laugh track, by the way

Kid Combustible (11:44:59 PM): or a 3 cam set

Kid Combustible (11:45:13 PM): It pretty much as situations and comedy.

Miss Mordant (11:45:37 PM): Besides, you've only seen the episode of HIMYM where they go to Atlantic City, which isn't even indicative.

Kid Combustible (11:46:06 PM): You've never seen Rocky 3

Kid Combustible (11:46:08 PM): I rest my case

Kid Combustible (11:46:18 PM): Now, onto brass tacks

Kid Combustible (11:46:23 PM): or tax?

Miss Mordant (11:46:36 PM): It's tacks.

Miss Mordant (11:46:44 PM): I don't think there's a brass tax.

Kid Combustible (11:46:53 PM): Not since Dickety-3

Kid Combustible (11:47:36 PM): Now, we can agree that these two shows are pardoxically similar and almost completely opposite, right?

Miss Mordant (11:47:51 PM): Arrested Development and 30 Rock?

Miss Mordant (11:48:03 PM): They're formatted similarly but the plots are entirely different

Miss Mordant (11:48:18 PM): My Name is Earl and How I Met Your Mother have nothing in common except the fact that I like them.

Kid Combustible (11:48:30 PM): alright, let's stop talking about the lesser sitcoms

Kid Combustible (11:48:41 PM): We're talking about canon here

Kid Combustible (11:49:11 PM): Which I believe AD is firmly a part of, while 30 Rock isn't.

Miss Mordant (11:49:20 PM): What?

Kid Combustible (11:49:29 PM): The Canon

Kid Combustible (11:49:33 PM): The Canon of Comedy

Kid Combustible (11:49:45 PM): or, seeing as this is comedy, The Kanon of Komedy

Miss Mordant (11:50:36 PM): Why don't you think 30 Rock is part of that?

Kid Combustible (11:51:10 PM): Well, let me preface that remark posthumously:

Kid Combustible (11:51:33 PM): It certainly has the opportunity to be a part of that upper eschelon

Kid Combustible (11:53:09 PM): It's quick, it's well written, and I don't think you can ever count out a Tina Fey project. (I had to watch Mean Girls 3 times before I figured that out). However, I cannot escape this sort of jabbing sensation that 30 Rock is sort of the zazzed-up version of AD to some extent.

Miss Mordant (11:53:46 PM): But you admit it's zazzed.

Kid Combustible (11:54:46 PM): It relies too heavily on comedy troupes that are well worn (crazy black guy, crazy wild woman, smooth talking Alec Baldwin). It certainly does a lot to switch up the normal pitch that those are played at, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're blowing down any boundaries.

Kid Combustible (11:59:17 PM): Seeing as you aren't chomping at the bit to answer, I'll continue: 30 Rock has the ability to be truly boring at times. I think of all the instances where Liz Lemon simply gives up on morales or ideas and falls in line. Sure, it's realistic, but who gives a shit? It's a sell-out for a cheap laugh. In another high-profile incident on that show, I would have killed to see the purported Tracy-Toofer skit about race relations, rather than Star Jones Cooking Show or whatever that was

Kid Combustible (11:59:56 PM): AD, on the other hand, went over the line so many times it's hard to count. They went to Iraq, for god's sake

Miss Mordant (12:00:09 AM): For the record, I was in fact chomping. Chomping slowly is chomping nonetheless.

Miss Mordant (12:01:39 AM): The problem with cheap laughs is that people who aren't urban sophisticates like yourself enjoy them. In the business aspect of creating a comedy show, relatability is key

Miss Mordant (12:02:44 AM): And in the case of the 30 Rock episode you mentioned, seeing the Tracy-Toofer skit would have defeated the whole purpose of the episode.

Miss Mordant (12:02:57 AM): That's something Studio 60 would have done.

Miss Mordant (12:03:38 AM): If they'd shown the skit, it would have to have been god-awful.

Kid Combustible (12:03:53 AM): I agree, and I think that would have been how they could have played it

Kid Combustible (12:04:07 AM): Also, let us never speak of Studio 60 again

Miss Mordant (12:04:28 AM): Aaron Sorkin? I have no Aaron Sorkin.

Kid Combustible (12:04:49 AM): I just confused him with Alan Arkin. Color me embarrassed

Miss Mordant (12:05:07 AM): Somebody didn't grow up on Sports Night reruns.

Kid Combustible (12:05:39 AM): That says something distinct about us - you grew up on a show that parodied a show that I grew up on.

Kid Combustible (12:06:07 AM): Anyway, were you still going before this deviation?

Miss Mordant (12:06:11 AM): This could be another topic, see? Sports Night isn't a parody.

Kid Combustible (12:06:20 AM): AHH KILL IT

Miss Mordant (12:06:55 AM): This isn't debate club!

Miss Mordant (12:07:15 AM): and you're not Tim Russert

Kid Combustible (12:07:37 AM): I do like the Buffalo Bills.

Miss Mordant (12:07:42 AM): Anyway, 30 Rock doesn't have to be Arrested Development. Arrested Development already happened.

Miss Mordant (12:07:59 AM): It can't blow down barriers that Arrested Development blew down.

Miss Mordant (12:08:34 AM): I think that its place in canon will be its longevity. Proof that a postmodern sitcom can exist in a one-camera world.

Kid Combustible (12:11:30 AM): I would agree, but that doesn't mean that they equate each other in quality. 30 Rock will be around for at least as long as shows like The Office because they lack the same balls-to-the-wallity as AD, but I'm not ready to give "staying power" as one of its positive attributes, particularly in this comparison

Kid Combustible (12:14:14 AM): As for the idea of cheap jokes, I nearly dropped my snifter of brandy when I read that. AD was incredibly gag-laden, and I don't think I got the idea that I loved that about AD across strong enough. I think 30 Rock's mass appeal is based on it's universally understood subject manner more than its simplicity (which is weird, because somehow a family dynamic is less universal nowadays)/

Miss Mordant (12:15:56 AM): That doesn't seem weird to me at all. In today's society, there's no such thing as a universal family dynamic.

Kid Combustible (12:16:47 AM): particularly when that family dynamic centers around a bunch of lupen rich eccentrics (something the show had the insanely prudent sense to point out repeatedly).

Miss Mordant (12:17:15 AM): Especially after it was canceled.

Miss Mordant (12:18:05 AM): Anyway, it's unfair to expect me to argue that 30 Rock is somehow a superior show to Arrested Development, because it isn't.

Miss Mordant (12:18:29 AM): Its format is derivative of AD and its content is derivative of pop culture at large.

Miss Mordant (12:18:53 AM): but dammit, the jokes are funny.

Kid Combustible (12:19:56 AM): I agree. I would almost say that 30 Rock is a much more accessable show in a momentary sense. Watching an episode of AD out of a seasonal episodic format is jarring.

Miss Mordant (12:21:40 AM): One might say that Arrested Development is to Waiting for Guffman as 30 Rock is to Best in Show

Kid Combustible (12:22:01 AM): Everyone I know hates Best in Show

Kid Combustible (12:22:21 AM): I love the comparison, FWIW

Miss Mordant (12:22:22 AM): Maybe you should get out more.

Miss Mordant (12:23:54 AM): Thanks. Anyway, I think a major difference between sitcom format and the kind of comedy program that Arrested Development popularized is an adherence to continuity.

Miss Mordant (12:24:14 AM): In the old format, a conflict would arise in an episode and be resolved within the episode.

Miss Mordant (12:24:46 AM): In the new format, conflicts resolve on a season-to-season basis or as part of an arc.

Kid Combustible (12:26:48 AM): There's also an in-between space with those two set ups of which 30 Rock has an almost otherworldly understanding. It is able to carry on arcs and fulfill them while keeping the variety high.

Miss Mordant (12:27:26 AM): And I know The Office isn't part of this discussion, but it finds another way to fall between the formats.

Miss Mordant (12:27:39 AM): And that's not to say that Arrested Development isn't episodic.

Kid Combustible (12:28:48 AM): The problem with the The Office in that respect is that you never ever are let to forget what the arcs are. At the end of each episode you once again get a thick reminder of everything happening in the background. 30 Rock has a much more lassiez-faire relationship with it's viewers, which translates into more trust in my opinion.

Miss Mordant (12:29:37 AM): Both shows have changed since their pilots in that aspect, though.

Miss Mordant (12:30:11 AM): 30 Rock seems to deal with continuity only when it needs to. Instead of inventing a new love interest for Liz, they bring back Dennis or Floyd.

Kid Combustible (12:30:57 AM): One point I think we wouldn't agree on between AD and 30 is which has the better characters. However, I'm not positive where you lay on this, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Miss Mordant (12:34:06 AM): Okay. My honest opinion is that I prefer the tertiary characters on Arrested Development and the primary characters on 30 Rock.

Kid Combustible (12:34:30 AM): YES, we are direct opposites

Miss Mordant (12:34:45 AM): Come on. Bob Loblaw? That's genius.

Miss Mordant (12:36:12 AM): One of Arrested Development's strengths was its stunt casting.

Miss Mordant (12:36:48 AM): Whereas who did 30 Rock get? Jerry Seinfeld? That may be the worst episode.

Kid Combustible (12:38:32 AM): I mean, I agree that AD knows their chess pieces better than maybe any show before it, but are you joking? I counter your Bob Loblaw with Dr. Spaceman, Donny the evil page and Matthew Broderick's absolutely delicious turn in last season's finale.

Kid Combustible (12:40:02 AM): That's not even counting the fact that 30 Rock's set up allows Liz/Tracy/Jenna/Donaghy to be featured while the rest of the mammoth cast falls in and out, while AD requires almost a complete stop switch upon showing every new character

Miss Mordant (12:40:25 AM): The question here is whether or not Franklin counts as a tertiary character.

Kid Combustible (12:41:05 AM): "I GOT CHILDRENS ALL OVER TOOOOWN"

Kid Combustible (12:42:35 AM): Also, Devon Banks might be better than GOB

Kid Combustible (12:42:36 AM): there

Kid Combustible (12:42:38 AM): I said it

Miss Mordant (12:43:21 AM): He certainly has more tumors.

Kid Combustible (12:43:36 AM): But he's less of a poof

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Nathan Rabin, slipping up

There is one universal truth between the authors of this merry blog - The A.V. Club is, without a doubt, one of the funniest and most perfect websites in all of webdom. Most internet sites would be lucky to glance the precipice of the edge of the same neighborhood of humor and insight that the A.V. Club brings to the table daily. It is the one website that we love completely and unequivocally (except for Sean O'Neal. His South Park reviews are shit). Usually love for Nathan Rabin, one of the main writers at the A.V. Club, is free-flowing and robust, blooming with praise and joy.

Apparently it's also a lot like a delicious red wine.

However, even the mighty must slip up sometime. In his most recent entry into the absolutely necessary My Year of Flops series, he starts out with a great deal of praise for Judd Apatow - the end result being to defend the commercial failure Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story. After this string of kind words, he turns on the somewhat growing movement of anti-Apatow fans as a reaction to Apatow's success, that he and his current ubiquitous has been "engendering resentment". Rabin then goes on to point out the major failing of Apatow's films, which his inability to portray women in any sort of non-subordinate manner.

While I cannot speak for Miss Mordant, as we have not yet breached this subject in a conversation, my hardline stance is that the problem with most Apatow films is that they are stupid. Yes, they absolutely do not treat their female characters with anything more than a hamfisted stereotyping brush, but that is only part of the problem for me. The dialogue in his movies (save the classic Anchorman) is filled with childish and profane humor that only works under this somewhat hilarity-inducing guise of "reality". Almost all of the movies turn at the end so they may show some sort of heart or sentimentality that (in my viewing) feels more forced and glossed-over than anything. You can't give me Big Macs worth of dick jokes and misogyny for 2 hours and the switch to fillet mignon in the last half hour (also, his movies are generally too long. Just sayin').

The reason I decided to post this was not to completely spill my opinion on Mr. Apatow (which I may have done albeit accidentally). The reason was that after Rabin defended Apatow for a good three paragraphs, he started to talk about how one of the major reasons Walk Hard didn't sell was the possibly off-putting title. He follows this argument up with this:

As longtime readers know, I find nothing more deplorable than dick jokes.

Nothing more deplorable. Nothing remotely more deplorable than dick jokes. Either Rabin is being sarcastic (which I would doubt) or he somehow missed a great deal of all of Apatow's films. Which could be plausible, I guess. He could very well simply go up for popcorn at the same time when the nearly-guaranteed litany of dick jokes come spewing from the surround sound theater, and return just in time to see heartwarming faux-comedy. this is the assumption I'm going to make to keep a smile on my face.

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Irony is...

watching an excellent episode of 30 Days  where a hunter goes and lives with a family of vegan activists and having the commercial breaks be 

Oh Hulu, you magnificent bastard. 

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Momentary Greatness: The Pipettes

I like music. It's probably the most bland and impotent thing you could tell someone, but it's also one of the most true. It's akin to telling someone you like breathing, or candy. It's a trait that will be shared by most reasonable people (also, if they dont happen to like one of those things, it's an instant blaring siren telling you to evade). I would like to be as honest with the good people of the internet as possible. So, to clarify: I like music.

I also like minutiae. Details are very important in art for me. This is also not something terribly localized to myself, but it is also an important part of me. I love to stop movies at specific moments and rewatch them, just to catch the way certain lines are said or how a facial expression foreshadows an event. This is, by no means, to brag; watching a movie with me is generally not recommended, and I often lose some of the greater message forest through the trees of camera angles. However, i yam what I yam, and music is no different for me.

So, in a reoccurring feature on music (which I've been told by my mother is totally hip and edgy to do on the internet), I'm going to brush by artists, albums, and even songs. I'm going to talk about moments - those little sparks of sound that completely and utterly transcend the song itself. In a way, it's a much more universal way to look at music - though a song may be unbearable, it may still have some tiny moment of excellence. Here, we latch on to those. Although the first entry is not particularly bad, it is exceedingly small.










Artist: The Pipettes
Album: We are the Pipettes
Song: Your kisses are wasted on me
Time: 1:53
Type: Vocal
Moment: "You still don't know it!"

The Greatness: This is, in a way, the quintessential moment to start with, if not one of the more radical. It is subtle, swift, and executed with such surgical precision that it is the musical equivalent to a floating Johns Hopkins doctor performing a kidney transplant on a deaf and dumb person who has that disorder where they cannot feel pain. It's hard to notice, but it's noticeable enough.

What makes The Pipettes so wonderful is the falsity at work behind it. We aren't supposed to know the people singing, the musicians, the writers, anything. We're just supposed to listen and have fun. Because of that anonymity, the amount of bravado and callousness displayed in "Your kisses are wasted on me" comes off as fun and spunky, rather than a character fault. There is no connection to the characters, so it's just a fun song.

But fuck that, let's analyze the hell out of this bitch.

This song, like most of the faire on We Are The Pipettes, is repetition heavy, from the toy piano hook and the shout-along chorus to the first word of every verse being "Boy" said with an equal mix weariness, disaffection and disdain. The most effective example is during the pre-chrous, when the song drops from being bouncy pop to somewhat choral and melodramatic (helped along by the formally jaunty organ going into full-on Catholic church mode). The call-and-response during these sections offers a sort of voice of reason to the song; while the main lyrics seem to point to how hurt the male in this situation would be, the further-back response seems to say something more about the true nature of the speaker. (It helps if you imagine the voices of The Pipettes to be the various voices inside the head of one woman - I call her Phobe).

The very very very very last response is where this idea gets driven home. The response throughout the song is "and you don't know it" or "no, you don't know it." What this does is puts us in the present with this sort of relationship, the moment when the bond is being snapped. The entirety of the song has this feeling where the boy is just pathetic for his inability to recognize an ending. The effect of the final callback is excessively jarring to this understanding - by saying "you still don't know it", we now can assume that this is something that has happened in the past. Helped along by the increased octave by the main vocalist during that final pre-chorus, there is just a tinge of desperation from the woman that rings through, as though she has been trying to make herself believe that this is what the young man has been thinking/doing, yet there's no hint of that. She is left punching air.

In other news, hobbits use pipettes to get stoned and for plumbing.

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